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Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Delphine Bowers 
February 5, 1998 
Cassette 3, Side 2 
 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  00:00 
[Recording starts mid-sentence]-- [?Queen's?] neighborhood and Bellevue. 
 
Delphine Bowers  00:06 
I knew that this was true, and later on, I confirmed it with the kids, but having a neighborhood 
full of friends, and the kind of openness of being able to go back and forth, not having to lock 
our doors, was safe to play on the street because the street didn't really go anywhere, made up for 
a lot of the chaos at home. But I remember saying to Mary, the kids, my kids used to complain 
that if someone new moved in, they'd say, "How come we've never lived anywhere else. Here 
these people have lived here and there, and we never go anyplace, we never move." You know, 
"Well, your father doesn't have the kind of job that sends him around and we love it here, there's 
no reason to move." And later on, I can remember once, when they were all together, saying, 
"You know, you used to complain that we'd lived in the same house forever and everybody else 
got to move, how do you feel about it, looking back on it?" And they said, "Well, it was our 
salvation." That if we had, no matter where we would have gone, we would have had the same 
chaos in the household. But if they had had the experience of not only having a chaotic 
household, but having to, to always be the new kid on the block and, and not, and change schools 
and all of those other things, it would have been much harder on them. So it was, we were 
fortunate because typically, families with an alcoholic parent move a lot. Because they get into 
financial difficulties and are often one step ahead of the sheriff and Jack kept his credit good. I'm 
sure that, I mean, I know he charged a lot of his, his drinking. And when we were divorced, I 
said, "Well, the credit card bills are half mine, so I'll, you know, help late pay them." And he 
said, "No, you don't have much on there. I'll do it. I'll take care of the credit card bills." And it 
was because he used to buy drinks for everybody, when he got into a tavern, put it all on a credit 
card. And I mean, he took care of the bills and I didn't pay any attention to money. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  02:32 
For your kids, you say that the neighborhood was their salvation. For you, was work your 
salvation? 
 
Delphine Bowers  02:38 
Yeah 
 
Page 2 of 13 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  02:38 
Yeah?  
 
Delphine Bowers  02:39 
The interviewing was my salvation. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  02:41 
Did you end up doing that full time?  
 
Delphine Bowers  02:43 
Yes, I got-- Let's see, the first full time thing I did was when our the longitudinal study had been 
going on for three years and--  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  02:54 
What was that study about?  
 
Delphine Bowers  02:56 
It was an evaluation of the Manpower Development Training Act programs, and it was very, it's 
a very good study where we talked to people who had been in the programs, and we also talked 
to what they called a household cohort that were people that were age and sex and economically 
matched who did not do the programs. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  03:23 
Excuse my ignorance. But what is, what was that Manpower Act?  
 
Delphine Bowers  03:26 
Well, there were a bunch of those things. There was the Job Corps, there was the, something 
called J.O.B.S. Jobs of the Business Sector. I mean, there were bunches of them, they were 
Lyndon Johnson kind of things. And they had, it's a good thing they had a household cohort 
because we were in the middle of a huge going slump. And nobody could find jobs anywhere, 
that, they discovered it wasn't because the Manpower people were being discriminated against, 
or because they weren't well trained, nobody got jobs, the household people couldn't find jobs 
either. We had a lot of unemployment. We had lots, a lot of the interviewing was very 
discouraging, because it was about people coming out with a bright new certificate. And it was 
also very, very sexist. The women were trained to be nurse's aides and secretaries, and the men 
were trained to be things like heavy machine operators, where they could make big bucks, and 
the women would be making, women, minimum wage. I couldn't, couldn't believe it. It was just 
awful. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  04:42 
So you interviewed them and-- 
 
Delphine Bowers  04:46 
So when that study came to an end, I took a I took a course in, it was for older women who were 
re-entering the workforce or thinking about going to, I was thinking it's time to go to work full 
time because--  
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Jenny Kurzweil  04:59 
How old were you at this point? 
 
Delphine Bowers  05:12 
Probably just past 40. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  05:15 
So you did the work with the the researching and interviewing for 15?  
 
Delphine Bowers  05:22 
Well, I did it for about, probably about six or seven years as a part time person. And so I took 
this thing and, we had to take, we took one of those-- I forgot the name of the test, whatever test 
it is, that shows the things that you're good at from your interests. I came out, psychiatrist, 
psychologist, you know, all of those things. Well, interviewing is pretty close to that in terms of 
relating to people. So I thought that was interesting. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  05:59 
Is that one of the reasons why you decided to go back to graduate school?  
 
Delphine Bowers  06:03 
Mm-mm, I'd forgotten all about that test by then. And then a job opened at the university. They 
had been doing a study in the model city's neighborhood, and the person who was supervising it 
had not been well trained, didn't know what he was doing, and was not interested in doing a good 
job, and he was an alcoholic. And so they hired me to pull their chestnuts out of the fire, because 
they were about ready to have the whole study go down the tube and lose a huge grant. It was on 
comparing Group Health and King County Blue Cross, Blue Shield, and measuring the 
utilization and satisfaction and so it was really interesting. And it meant, and they had, oh, the 
big study was set up so that they had, as part of it, they had outreach workers that were supposed 
to teach them how to use the programs and help them to get food stamps and do whatever they 
did, and then they had us, who were interviewers. And the outreach workers, if we kept on the 
right side of them, could help us contact people, or they could make it impossible for us. And so 
I was the supervisor, and I had to, first of all, redo 700 interviews that have been done wrong.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  07:31 
Oh, my goodness, personally, or you contracted that out, yeah? 
 
Delphine Bowers  07:36 
No, I didn't contract it out. I recruited and I hired and I trained all of the interviewers on that 
study. I had to write the specifications for the interview, because it had not been done, there were 
no specs, I had to set up their timesheets, I mean, I had to do the whole schmear. It was big job, 
and I did a good job, they were very happy with it.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  07:58 
Did you enjoy it?  
 
Page 4 of 13 
 
Delphine Bowers  07:59 
Oh, yeah. But I didn't get out in the field very much. Most of the time. I was going over people's 
work with them, or making phone calls or, you know, that kind of thing. But it was okay. And I 
did that for, it was two or three years that study. And I, they were so desperate that they asked 
me how I wanted to be hired, and I said, "I want to be a full time, permanent employee of the 
university with full benefits and access to the retirement system."  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  08:34 
Good for you.  
 
Delphine Bowers  08:35 
Yeah, it was good for me, I was surprised. And I was 45, I remember that because I remember 
thinking, if I stay until I'm 65, I'll have 20 years and I'll have a nice little bench. So I, they did.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  08:51 
The kids were teenagers at this point?  
 
Delphine Bowers  08:53 
Yeah, the kids were teenagers. Mary got married during that time, and the youngest was 14 when 
she got married. And then when that study ended, NORC had hired me as a supervisor for a year. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:08 
What's NO-- Oh, National Opinions Research Center. 
 
Delphine Bowers  09:09 
And it was a stupid study, I didn't like it. It was one on health care, and it was, it was difficult, 
and I didn't like people that I, I didn't like my supervisors, particularly. NORC was fine if you 
were in the field, but they were a very uptight company, and they were very much into 
professionalism and a professional appearance. And this was completely counter to my 
philosophy, because I believed that there should be no barriers between you and the people that 
you interview, and that if you looked professional, that was a barrier to start out with. If you 
were rubbing around in Yesler Terrace, it made you look like a social worker or something and 
they're not going to tell you anything, you can forget it. So, I would go looking like I lived there, 
which was fine with my supervisor, because she was, she knew what was what. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:10 
And where was this again? 
 
Delphine Bowers  09:10 
Here. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:10 
Oh, yeah. 
 
Delphine Bowers  09:10 
[Inaudible] I would be in, and I had a dress so that maybe I'd be in Broadmoor. 
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Jenny Kurzweil  09:10 
You'd be where?  
 
Delphine Bowers  09:10 
In Broadmoor, which is a gated community, one, in the morning, and in Yesler Terrace in the 
afternoon. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:10 
Oh, Yesler Terrace. 
 
Delphine Bowers  09:10 
Which is in the housing-- 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  09:10 
Uh-huh. 
 
Delphine Bowers  09:32 
--and it was pretty interesting. I had a uniform that I had made myself, a little, it was a jumper, 
and it was absolutely straight, and I wore different blouses with it. And it was kind of an acrylic, 
dark green acrylic knit, and I could wear it-- And we had, we couldn't wear pants, we couldn't 
wear pants interviewing. Now I [?quite well?] like this, and I had some, I love silver, so I might 
have a little sterling pin, that I wear with it, but that would take me anywhere. You know, 
nobody would think I was putting on airs, and nobody would think that I was was suspect, they 
would let me in their house. I remember once in Yesler Terrace having a big black guy had a 
truck full of watermelons, and he said to me, "Hey, lady, if you tell me which one is your house, 
I'll leave you a watermelon on the step. If you leave me $1." And I thought, I've arrived, I've 
made it. So after I did that, then the next thing that happened was, I don't know how I found this 
job, I think I looked at the university employment stuff, because I was essentially on leave of 
absence from the university when I interviewed a year for NORC. And there was a job doing a 
study of an antidepressant drug, one of the Food and Drug Administration protocols, they're very 
cut and dried. But it was on the psych floor, the [?locked?] psych ward.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  12:19 
The lock site? 
 
Delphine Bowers  12:20 
Psych, psychiatric ward.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  12:21 
Oh, okay.  
 
Delphine Bowers  12:23 
And I was absolutely fascinated, because I just, I took to it like a duck takes to water. I got along 
fine with the patients, never had any problems, staff liked me because the patients liked me and 
because they knew that I would follow them after they got out, that was part of the study. And 
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the system was very bad then, where lots of times patients would be discharged, but the mental 
health centers were so crowded that it might be three weeks before they could get an 
appointment, and they thought that the contact with me might keep them from falling through the 
cracks. And it may have, I don't know. So I loved that job, but by pretty soon, I got to thinking, I 
want to be able to help these people. I don't want to just ask them questions and not be able to 
help them. And so that's when I went to graduate school, got a lot of support from it, from all the 
shrinks and the staff, and they were absolutely delighted that I was doing it. I was 50 when I 
went into graduate school. And I worked nights, I worked Friday night and Saturday night and I 
worked 10 hour shifts, so I got my benefits, and for those two, for 20 hours a week, and it was, it 
was great.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  13:44 
How was how was your family with you going back to school? Were they supportive of it?  
 
Delphine Bowers  13:49 
Yeah, he didn't really much care. [Inaudible], I mean, everybody was in college, and I would, 
Claire was on campus, and I used to have lunch with her once in a while. It was really funny, 
because I would be trotting around in my blue jeans with my pack on my back, and kids would 
go up, come up to me. They would either be my friend's children or my children's friends, and 
they'd say, "Mrs. Bowers?"  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  14:19 
"What are you doing here?"  
 
Delphine Bowers  14:25 
Just completely out of context. And so that's what I did.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  14:29 
Did you enjoy school?  
 
Delphine Bowers  14:31 
Not particularly. I was very uptight. I was operating on about one or two cylinders, the situation 
at home was so bad.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  14:40 
With all the, with with all the kids gone?  
 
Delphine Bowers  14:42 
Well, it wasn't just that the kids were gone, it was that Jack was drinking more and more and that 
we didn't have a kind word to say to each other. And I would drive up into the carport, and he 
would be standing there, at the kitchen sink, usually. Slamming stuff around in the kitchen, if 
you could see his mouth working, you knew he was swearing. And I'd think, I don't want to go in 
there. And then I'd think, I don't have any other place to go. I have to go in there. I don't have any 
other place to go.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  15:12 
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Was this still in Bellevue then?  
 
Delphine Bowers  15:14 
Yeah. And I didn't like Bellevue anyway, it was okay to live in that neighborhood when the 
children were growing up, and it meant a lot to them, but it wasn't okay when most everybody 
had moved away and the children were gone. And I mean, Jack had drunk enough so that he took 
early retirement, supposedly because of his hearing loss, but actually because he had gotten bad 
tempered with it, overreactive with his drinking. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  15:45 
Did you have separate rooms?  
 
Delphine Bowers  15:47 
No. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  15:52 
What a house. 
 
Delphine Bowers  15:54 
Hm? 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  15:54 
What a house. 
 
Delphine Bowers  15:56 
It's a great, big house. We could, we could have had separate rooms after the children moved, 
there was certainly room enough to, but. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  16:08 
Did you meet people in school that you, that you enjoyed? I mean, did you, did-- You said you 
were uptight in school, but did you enjoy it as well? Or did you meet people that you enjoyed or? 
 
Delphine Bowers  16:19 
Kind of halfway, I, there's, there are a couple of people that I knew in school that I am loosely in 
connection with. They weren't quite as old as I am. Anne McMurray lives down the road, and 
she has been working with peace movement ever since we got out of school. She's pretty much 
of a radical, and I like her. But we, I, again, I was the wife of an alcoholic, I couldn't take 
anybody home, and I didn't think anybody would want me or want to know me. I really did think 
I was pretty scummy. And I, you know, I was interested in some of the courses, but most of them 
were Mickey Mouse. The School of Social Work is full of Mickey Mouse courses. And this may 
be true of all schools of social work, I don't know, [?could certainly prove that?]. But the reason I 
went there because it was a cheap, easy credential. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  17:23 
So what did you do when you finished? 
 
Page 8 of 13 
 
Delphine Bowers  17:26 
Well, I worked for a while at the work release program, and that didn't work out very well. I need 
to be able to trust the people I work with, that was not fun for me. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  17:34 
Was the work release program at the UW? 
 
Delphine Bowers  17:37 
No-- 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  17:38 
It wasn't? 
 
Delphine Bowers  18:30 
--it was a part of King County. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  18:55 
Okay. 
 
Delphine Bowers  17:41 
I was working for the county. I worked for a while in the emergency room in Everett Hos-- At 
Everett, General Hospital in Everett, and that didn't work out. They were so nasty, and I had no 
training to work in an emergency room. And they thought I ought to be able to do it because I 
worked as a mental health specialist at Harborview, that had nothing to do with it. They, they 
told me, and I was stupid, they said, "We won't give you any supervision or training." And I 
should have said, "Well, I can't do it without that." And that would have been that. But I thought, 
oh, well, I can learn, I can read, you know. But I, it didn't work. I worked, I kept working at 
Harborview for a while, where they would, I'd be on call, and they'd call me because they liked 
me, they liked what I did. And then really, I got to the point where I could hardly do anything, I 
was so depressed. I was just absolutely depressed. I wasn't doing, I didn't do very well at any of 
the jobs I had, and I wasn't suited for them. I shouldn't have tried it. Well, I should have gone 
into a mental health center where I'd get really good supervision, but I didn't want to do that. 
Probably because I thought I'd get fired if anyone found out how bad I was. And also, I'm a non 
conformist, I didn't want to do all the stupid paperwork and all of that stuff. And so I told my 
stepmother that I was so depressed I couldn't work and I needed money. She was fine with that 
because she, you know, had more money than she knew what to do with it--  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  18:57 
Was she in her 80s at this point? 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:11 
No, I think she was in her 70s. She died in 1989 and she was 89.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  19:32 
Oh, okay.  
 
Page 9 of 13 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:33 
Okay, no, she was in her 80s. Because this was after 1980, she was born in 1900. Yeah, she was 
in her 80s, and she was living in Panorama City, and she didn't go any place or do anything.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  19:45 
Where's Panorama City? 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:46 
Just down in, by, near Olympia, in Lacey.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  19:50 
Oh, okay. 
 
Delphine Bowers  19:51 
And so she deposited or, had automatically deposited in my account, 500 dollars every month. 
And I could, I supplemented that, but if, I was believing I'd have to give up my car, wouldn't be 
able to do anything. I only had to pay 200 dollars a month in my co-op, because it was 100 
dollars [coughs]-- 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  20:14 
Oh, that's right, you had divorced Jack at this point, which is why-- 
 
Delphine Bowers  20:19 
Yeah. But the maintenance fee was 100 dollars and my payment was 100 dollars, so I, my 
expenses were not very high. And I was driving a bug. So she, she was willing, and she was 
absolutely delighted that I asked her for something, because I never did. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  20:42 
And your dad had passed away at this point? 
 
Delphine Bowers  20:44 
Yeah. He died just before he knew whether or not I was admitted to graduate school, but his 
comment on was, "You're too old to be getting a master's. If you wanted a master's, you should 
have done it when you got out, first got out of college." 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  21:01 
Were they in your lives at all? I mean, were they in your, in your life at all? [Inaudible.] Were 
they present grandparents?  
 
Delphine Bowers  21:08 
Yes, they were. They were very interfering in the marriage, they had ideas about how we should 
do everything. And I allowed them to run our, run us, because I really didn't think we could get 
along without the help they gave us. They bought the children's shoes, all kinds of things like 
that, and it was really bad. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  21:28 
Page 10 of 13 
 
It was bad to have them interfering?  
 
Delphine Bowers  21:31 
Well, it was bad that I allowed them to do that. And I suspected if I had then had any backbone 
or known how to do it, I could have said to them, "You know, I really appreciate the things that 
you're doing, but there are strings attached to it, and it's not good for our marriage, and it's not 
good for us, or for the children. And I don't want you to give us things and believe that it gives 
you the privilege of telling us what to do." And they wouldn't have understood that, they would 
have said, "Of course it gives us that privilege." It was one of the reasons I didn't leave Jack 
years before. It was because I knew that if my parents gave me any help, they would think that 
they had the right to tell me how to rear my kids. And I didn't know that I could have gotten 
along without it. Because now people do, but then, rearing four kids by yourself was not the kind 
of thing people did very often. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  22:46 
Even now, it's not much fun anyway. 
 
Delphine Bowers  22:49 
People I know that are doing it, I don't know how they do it. I don't know how they do it, I don't 
know how they'd be-- I think single parenting must be awful. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  23:01 
Do you feel-- So that was a very large reason, it seems, that you stayed with Jack. 
 
Delphine Bowers  23:07 
Mm-hmm. And then after I'd been in therapy for about a year, I started building my practice. 
And it did well. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  23:15 
It was a private practice? 
 
Delphine Bowers  23:16 
Mm-hmm. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  23:19 
And you were a therapist? Still are?  
 
Delphine Bowers  23:21 
Yeah. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  23:24 
Now during all this time, I'm wondering, you seem to be a very spiritual person, and you went to 
the Episcopal Church, and that's how you met Jack. And then I'm curious about your spiritual life 
at this time as well. 
 
Delphine Bowers  23:41 
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It was practically non existent. I would kneel in church with the tears rolling down my face, 
hearing all of the, hear what comfortable words our Lord Jesus Christ says, "You don't come 
unto me," and I'd know it wasn't for me. And I couldn't tell anyone what was going on because 
my husband was the organist, so I couldn't go and get any kind of help or counseling. Anytime 
we went together for any kind of counseling, it'd always end up with they're saying, "Well, you 
know, you don't keep prayer, you're not a very good housekeeper, you've gained weight." 
[Inaudible], you know. And I went to a psychiatrist for three and a half years because Bill was 
asthmatic as a baby, and he charged a great deal of money, which I took out of my little trust 
fund that my mother had left me. And it did nothing for me, he really didn't. The only thing is, I 
really, I didn't kill myself, but he was not helpful. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  24:41 
[Cat meows.] There she goes. Now Martha's talking under the tape. 
 
Delphine Bowers  24:48 
What do you say, Martha? [Returns to interview.] He was the, of the school that doesn't say very 
much, and I needed a lot of educating. I needed to know about gay, I needed to know about 
alcohol, and that, those things never came up. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  25:17 
Because Jack was the organist in the church, was your family expected to be involved?  
 
Delphine Bowers  25:24 
Oh, yeah.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  25:24 
Yeah? 
 
Delphine Bowers  25:24 
I sang in the choir. The children all got dressed up and went to Sunday school. Absolutely. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  25:30 
So when you left Jack, did you also leave the Episcopal--  
 
Delphine Bowers  25:36 
I left the church probably 10 years before I left Jack. Because I had tried very hard to believe the 
things that the Episcopal Church taught. When I joined the church, did I tell you that I said to the 
priest, "I don't really believe some of the things I'm supposed to, is it fair for me to join this 
church?" And he said, "Do you want to believe them?" And I said, "Oh, I'd love it. I'd love to 
believe those things." And when I got to be maybe 20 years later, 20 or 25 years later, I said, one 
day, "I still don't believe these things, and I'm not going there anymore." And I didn't.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:20 
How'd your parents feel about you being Episcopal? 
 
Delphine Bowers  26:21 
Page 12 of 13 
 
Well, my stepmother loved it because she was Episcopalian.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:24 
But your dad?  
 
Delphine Bowers  26:25 
My father, my mother said that he thought, she was relieved, that he was glad I'd done 
something. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:35 
He never went to temple, did he?  
 
Delphine Bowers  26:36 
There wasn't a temple for him to go to in the Philippines. And you know, he never went-- 
[talking to cat] Where are you going? What're you doing? 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:46 
Martha the cat is very, she's very active today.  
 
Delphine Bowers  26:49 
She's very active always.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:50 
Oh, the last couple times I've been here, she's been pretty subdued, but.  
 
Delphine Bowers  26:54 
Now she knows you.  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:55 
Yeah.  
 
Delphine Bowers  26:56 
What are you doing Martha? You make her squeak. [Cat meows]. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  26:56 
[Laughs] Make her squeak.  
 
Delphine Bowers  27:03 
[Returns to interview] Yeah, so I met people who are interested in psychic things. I met people 
who, you know, I was beginning to dabble in New Age-y kinds of things at the very beginning of 
it. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  27:31 
When you were in graduate school or before? 
 
Delphine Bowers  27:33 
Page 13 of 13 
 
Before. But there really wasn't, I didn't have any spiritual life. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  27:39 
Mm-hmm. Did you miss it? 
 
Delphine Bowers  27:53 
I don't know. I was so depressed that it wasn't, I stayed depressed for a long time. The Episcopal 
Church [inaudible] spiritual life for me. I certainly missed, yes, I missed it terribly, but I didn't 
know I was missing it. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  28:12 
And now do you have a practice that you follow? 
 
Delphine Bowers  28:17 
Yeah, I meditate and I, I read. I'm reading a, a book by, what's his name? Cooper, David Cooper 
called God is a Verb. Have you read it?  
 
Jenny Kurzweil  28:38 
Mm-mm. 
 
Delphine Bowers  28:39 
And it's, it's heavy going for me, because about every two or three pages, I just got to stop to 
digest what I've read. But it's all stuff, a lot of it is stuff-- Well, I'm getting a lot of new 
information, but it's very familiar. It feels just right. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  28:58 
Have you become involved at all with a Jewish organization or? 
 
Delphine Bowers  29:03 
Well, I do some things with some of the people from the senior center at the north end, "J". And 
it's all right, it's nice to have people my age to do things with, but they're pretty set in their ways. 
I'm not used to being around such old people, and I'm surprised, I didn't know, perhaps, [?that 
they were?]. 
 
Jenny Kurzweil  29:42 
Check, oh, good timing here. I'm going to stop this tape. 
 